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Interview with Lib Rotan

Rotan, Lib
Powell, George
Felkner, Pete
Date of Interview: 
Basketball; Women and basketball; Title IX; Coaching and basketball; Integration and basketball
Lib Rotan and George Powell describe their experiences as high school basketball coaches. They discuss the various students they have taught and coached through the years and tell where they are now. Rotan and Powell also name the various schools in which they have coached over the years. They recall when the rules, both boys and girls, changed and what the sport was like before and after the change. They also remember when girls athletics was threatened. Lib Rotan speculates on why women's athletics was once almost cancelled. Rotan also describes how difficult it was to create a better athletic program for the girls in her school. She talks about the various things she did to help the girls continue playing sports. Rotan and Powell describe when more young blacks began playing basketball and they speculate as to why blacks excelled in basketball. Mrs. Rotan and Mr. Powell also recall when students used to focus on academics more than athletics, especially when they attended college. They claim that the student's primary concern was their schoolwork.
Mecklenburg County and Gaston County, NC 1946-1993
Levine Museum of the New South, Basketball Series
LR (Lib Rotan): Well, that and they're to start the Industrial League, there. [Pause] Now don't go back to 1893. [Laughter]
PF (Pete Felkner): No, I don't expect so.
LR: About. [Long pause]
GP (George Powell): Are you, are you interested in asking two segments or one segment.
PF: Well.
GP: The two segments. I mean one male participant and one female participant.
PF: Yeah. We're interested in both male--.
GP: Are you going to combine them or are you going to have them separate?
PF: Well, here's kind of the way we're thinking about doing it. We're thinking about talking about basketball and, in certain themes. And, a couple of them that we've developed are: what basketball taught people; like, did what you learn playing basketball help you in other aspects of your life after you stopped playing? And how specifically did it help? Can you think of any particular situations? Were these qualities derived from playing sports in general or were they things about basketball in particular that gave it a special influence? Then there's one category calling on examples; like, were there any people involved in basketball who particularly--, who you particularly looked up to? What was it about them that made them important to you? Or did you feel that you were setting an example for other people? You know, what made you feel that way?
GP: She'll accept the example for me.
LR: [Laughter]
PF: And then there's things like challenging expectations, like, especially with women, who times weren't, society kind of frowned on their participation or sometimes didn't think that it was OK for women to, or, I don't know--. It--. Some women that we've talked to felt like they've, there was some societal influences that, you know thought that basketball was a rough sport and maybe women shouldn't be playing it. And that's why they divided the court into halves and things like that. And then yeah, the integration of basketball in the 60s.
LR: Tiny minds, now that wasn't until '72 was it?
GP: If you're getting in the 60s you're getting beyond my day.
PF: That's beyond your day? So you quit coaching in the 50s?
GP: No, I quit coaching about '65. I think there's another aspect of this thing before we get, s--, s--, start off.
GP: Are you interested in trying to see where the black athlete became a predominant black during basketball?
PF: Yeah. We are. Creating communities and challenging expectations you know. Teams who are significant. Basketball teams who are significant part around which black communities could come together and then when they came onto the scene in the 60s in the ACC. Integration kind of challenged peoples expectations of blacks and whites participating together so. Yeah. I'm interested in what, what you have to say about that, that would be great.
GP: Well when I coached, I never have had a black youngster on my squad.
PF: Never did?
GP: Never did. And, and it, it, the blacks came in a little bit after I left (NWL), when Hartman came in.
LR: Right.
GP: That's a black. I never had, never coached a black.
LR: Did you know when I was at Sedgefield, there was no blacks on the team, with you. And all these Mecklenburg, I can't remember her. What years that was maybe, '57, with Jack Meade in. There were no blacks then. That was when--.
GP: Well I don't think there was a black playing in the northwest in our conference when I stopped coaching in '65.
LR: Sure wasn't.
PF: So what were the exact years that you coached and where? Just so we can get it for the record.
GP: Well I, I started in 1946 as, down at Alexander Graham Junior High School. Stayed there until '51 and '51 went to Myers Park High School and stayed there until '65.
PF: Did you play? Did you play basketball before that?
GP: Oh no. A bit. Not a great deal.
PF: So how did you get into coaching?
GP: I guess just through physical education and, and love of athletics in general.
PF: So you were a physical education teacher at, in school.
GP: See, she and I were physical education or were teachers first and coaches second.
LR: You didn't go to school to coach, you went to school to be a physical education teacher. So therefore you were thrown into coaching if there was a team.
PF: And where did you coach?
LR: My first job was at Cramerton. Cramerton High School. That was in the fall of 1948. And my job, well there was a ad in the paper saying that they needed a basketball coach. So I went, because they said they wanted a basketball coach. Not to teach. But that was my job, teaching.
PF: Uh-huh. And you had played basketball before that?
LR: Yeah.
PF: In high school?
LR: High school.
PF: College?
LR: We didn't have teams but I played like intramurals.
PF: Yeah. Where in high school?
LR: Rock Springs.
PF: And where in college did you go?
LR: High Point.
PF: So-.
LR: But that was the time when I was at High Point, there was a girl that played on the college team--boys. So that might be of interest.
PF: Oh a girl played on the boys' team--
LR: Yes.
PF: High Point College?
LR: And her junior year and the first one. I believe in North Carolina to play on the girls' team. Nancy Isenhour.
PF: Nancy Isenhour?
LR: Uh-huh.
PF: And what year was that?
LR: Oh my. She graduated before I went there, but that was one of the reasons I wanted to go. There was maybe '45 or '46.
PF: Uh-huh. Wow. I didn't know about that. Well so-
LR: I never--, she was written up in one magazine I think maybe Time or, Sports Illustrated wasn't then, but there is information to be found about Nancy. She was from New London. At least I think she's in New London.
GP: Yes, she grew up around Pfeiffer.
LR: Pfeiffer, yeah.
PF: So that would be, that would definitely challenge a lot people's expectation about whether women could compete with men. And whether they can-.
LR: Well there's a story about Virgil, yes. He was High Point coach. High Point boy. And at that time Hanes Hosiery had this outstanding--
PF: Right.
LR: --girls. So when, and then he got the job at High Point College as basketball coach. So he found Nancy who did compete to a college team at that time.
PF: So she was a member of the Hanes Hosiery team?
LR: No, no, no. She wasn't there at that time but I'm just giving you background of Virgil Yow and his, his believing in the girls can play.
PF: So he had coached Hanes Hosiery.
LR: Yes.
PF: I see.
LR: Yes.
PF: So he was--.
LR: And when he went to High Point, he saw Nancy I guess in a physical education class I don't know. I don't know how that came about.
PF: That's interesting.
LR: But that's available.
GP: Well you know I think, I think women are still fighting a battle to tie the line. Yeah.
LR: Oh yes. It's been a long time.
GP: Did you see I got interested in somebody giving old Terry Holland a fit by renting out the gym?
LR: No, I didn't see that.
GP: And with the girls at five o'clock in the afternoon? Do you know what his comeback was?
LR: No.
GP: Well, we giving the girls program all the money we got out of that game.
PF: Yeah. What do you think will happen with that Title IX stuff?
GP: It should've stayed.
LR: No question.
GP: It should've stayed.
PF: How do you think the colleges are going to adjust?
GP: Well they've been adjusting. Some have adjusted better than others. And I think, I think the smaller school probably, of account of Davidson that doesn't have a lot of, a lot of financial resources, having a harder time adjusting to it than the larger schools.
PF: You think so? I mean even with a program like Carolina where they get so much money for their football and basketball programs?
GP: After Dean Smith gets his.
PF: Yeah. Do you think they will be able to even it out somehow?
GP: Well I don't think your ever going to be able to even it out if you're talking about evening it out a dollar for dollar, I don't think so. Because generally speaking, the male programs plays so many more ball games and they travel so much more. And consequence you got a lot more expenses.
PF: Don't you think in proportional, devote resources proportionally, equally to men and women?
GP: Well I, I think it's a step in the right direction. When you look at a Judy Rose out at a UNCC as one of the top five women athletic directors in that particular conference. And isn't there another one in the country somewhere? And one of the-
LR: Well isn't the president of the NCAA a woman?
PF: I don't know.
LR: She is--
GP: Yeah. There's another one somewhere.
LR: The president of the NCAA is a woman.
GP: And how many athletes--?
PF: I thought it was Dick Schultz from Virginia?
LR: Well her picture was in the paper and I was surprised.
PF: He may have resigned and maybe there's--. I don't know.
LR: And that was when they made this plea that they had as many assistant coaches for men as they did women, and she said. She's the one who made that statement and I may have misread it. But I didn't know that.
GP: How many women athletic directors do you got in Mecklenburg County?
LR: Oh, two in high school. I don't know what junior high school is. Maybe three. Five out of thirty-one. About five. But Independence, Providence, out ( ) High School North Carolina has one.
PF: Well how do women--? How did--? When you were coaching with, they still had the half court rules?
LR: Yes. That's right.
PF: Where you couldn't cross half court and you had three on a side.
LR: Well that's when I first started. It was half court. Yeah. Well when I played in high school you jumped the ball in the center after every time.
PF: Yeah. So it was a much slower game. Well and the boys, the men did too though. That was until like '37 or something like that. So when did the transition come and what were the feelings like when they, you know changed the women's game form a half court to the regular game like men's? Like the men's game?
LR: Do you know I've never been one to think that they couldn't do it?
PF: Right.
LR: Just give you the opportunity and you'll come up to what the rules are. I've never even thought about them not being able to do it.
PF: I know. When did that happen?
LR: '72? It may have been a little before that. But it was about '74 or -5 when they changed the ball.
PF: Oh, to the smaller ball.
LR: Yes.
PF: And, was there a lot of resistance to that?
LR: No.
PF: How come it didn't happen earlier?
LR: It's because--.
GP: Somebody didn't push hard enough.
LR: That's right.
GP: Or you didn't get a woman's libber out front.
LR: That's right. I don't know why it didn't occur. It's just because it was never brought to the forefront by anybody. I remember when I was coaching at Cramerton, Jack Cust was the boys' coach and he came to me and said, "We probably won't have a girls basketball team next year because they are doing away with girls athletics." And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Well the somebody had called from Greensboro" UNC. Well it was Woman's College then and they passed a law saying that there will be no competitive, no interscholastic basketball. And he said, "I'm sorry."
GP: Was it passed or not, by the ?
LR: North Carolina High School Athletic Association. No it was, they took it to the, to--.
GP: Took it up from UNCG.
LR: Yes, to Raleigh. Yes there is a law, a statute on the books that's says. And that came about because there's some fella down in the eastern part of the state, had a daughter, a couple of daughters. The superintendent of schools down there. Yeah. I think he's retired. Anyway, he started having a state championship--girls and they wanted to cut that right off then and that was the reason, they didn't want-they wanted control of it. What is his name?
GP: Well that's the name of the ball game now.
PF: Wait you mean this guy--? I don't understand. He had a couple of daughters that played and he coached the team?
LR: Yes he coached the team at that time and so he decided he was going to have state championship for girls. Down in Pinecrest. Down in that area.
PF: Oh I see. And that was too much for people to take? Is that it?
LR: Yeah. Yeah. He, he made an effort to let them be seen. And I remember loading up my girls in Cramerton and going down to see them--to see the game. I thought oh god this is great, I wish my girls would an opportunity at this. And then, I wish I could think of that fella's name.
GP: Well it's just been an evolution.
LR: Yeah.
PF: So did they do away with the basketball at Cramerton?
LR: No, no. Didn't. I don't, I don't remember the sequence in which things occurred.
GP: The Wu-tan group over there got roweled up.
LR: [Laughter] Yes.
PF: So they kept it then. They did do away with it in here in Charlotte though for a while, didn't they?
LR: Yes that is--. I don't remember about basketball in Charlotte, the surrounding areas which were--, was in that book there was Gaston, Lincoln, where else did we go? Maybe Cleveland.
GP: When did you come to Myers Park?
LR: '57?
GP: We didn't have a girls' basketball then.
LR: We played among--, we played--.
GP: Intramural? Just a few, a few games here and there.
LR: But I think before I came there it was, it was Central, Harding, and Myers Park. The girls played. Didn't it? It was Marion, Mickie and Lou or Mickie or whoever.
GP: Mickie Bradley.
LR: Yeah. They just played.
PF: Just the three schools? There wasn't any organized league or anything?
LR: No. But they played hard. Because I remember them talking about now you know, even saying they wanted to beat Central, they wanted to beat Myers Park.
PF: Do you think it was because they didn't have the funds that they cut it out?
LR: No. No.
PF: It was just because--.
LR: It didn't cost anything.
PF: It was just because they --.
LR: I don't think it was funds do you?
GP: Hmm?
LR: It wasn't because of funds?
GP: It's the case of wanting to share what you had.
PF: And they just didn't want to give any to girls for their basket--?
LR: You know I don't think it was a conscious effort of that. I don't really know, just.
GP: But it seemed to--. I don't know. It seemed to me over at Myers Park the thing, without a lot hellabelew, it just works itselves in gradually and then all of a sudden you have a regular program and that was it. And now you got a little bit of everything hadn't you.
LR: Uh-hum.
GP: When ya'll going to have chess?
LR: We're already having it.
PF: Chess--?
LR: But it's not--.
PF: A chess team?
LR: It's not connected with athletics. They have tournaments.
GP: Well it's movement.
LR: [Laughter]
PF: Well.
GP: You know I, I, I think you can see a probably and I'm just saying probably, Lib's in either substantial way to object. I think around the early probably '65, '66 you saw a complete, almost a complete change in basketball. It's a lot more with the black element coming in and the (norun gun) shoot. Wouldn't you say?
LR: See I've never had any black. I never had any black.
GP: Well I mean that about--that's about when it started, '65, '66 --.
LR: OK. I think that's when the rules changed that you have a rover. About that time which one could run back and forth and I think that was the time --.
GP: No I was talking about mainly boys.
LR: Oh, OK. Alright.
GP: Because I, I, I think that the game just took on a new element when, when the blacks came in. And I think, I think one of the things the blacks were willing to give more to it to succeed than the average white was willing to give to succeed.
PF: They were more --?
GP: That was one place that they could dominate. And so they worked enough so they could dominate.
PF: Do you think there's a different cultural heritage between whites and blacks playing basketball, or do you think it's more part of a black neighborhoods and black communities than it is a part of white neighborhoods and white communities?
GP: Well I think, I think the real thing is well damn my part blew apart right this minute. And then look and see who we are going to see start playing basketball. Not whites, the blacks.
PF: So more of their community identity is --?
GP: I don't know about community identities it's, it's these kids wanting to get an identity for themselves. And they were willing to get out there in rain, shine, sleet or snow and play basketball. And then I think another reason for it is it's the average white middle class youngster had more opportunities to do other things than the average black middle class youngster. It's not saying anything against a black or saying anything against a white but that's just the way it is.
PF: So why was basketball the sport that blacks chose?
GP: Why?
PF: Yeah.
LR: Well it was easier for them to play with one piece of equipment than it is to play with golf or tennis or it's easier to get to a goal. And --.
PF: So it's cheaper.
LR: Cheaper?
PF: More accessible.
GP: Oh well all you got to do is go into a park and get you a ball. And that's all there is to it. And you have twenty-four hours of recreation and leisure.
PF: Don't need to belong to a country club.
GP: No.
LR: The equipment, dress. Pair of tennis shoes or street shoes.
GP: And it's the time that went from a ten dollar pair of sneakers to a hundred dollar pair of sneakers.
PF: Yeah. Equipment's pretty cheap.
GP: I wouldn't say that a hundred dollar pair of shoes is cheap.
LR: At that time.
PF: At that time.
GP: Yes, ten dollars.
PF: Get you a pair of Chuck Kramers or what do you call them?
LR: I don't know.
GP: But it's just, it's just been an evolution and it's just gone by and you take this mess not only in football, it's in basketball.
LR: Do you know I went down to see the ACC girls' basketball tournament in Rock Hill?
PF: This weekend?
LR: Yeah. It's just amazing. I feel kind of cheated. I could have done that. Got my, got my college paid.
GP: What percent of the athletes down at this weekend black women?
LR: What percent?
GP: I don't believe the black women has as--, is--, as predominant in basketball at the college level as is a black man.
LR: I think that you take them team by team, I believe it's more white than black.
PF: So you're thinking in women's basketball the racial percentages are different than in--?
GP: Well I don't, I don't reckon--, what causes it but that's, it's just the way, way it is. And it ain't no more way--, this won't stay that way long.
PF: But you feel cheated because --,
LR: Well --,
PF: You could've gotten your scholarship --,
LR: You see I never felt that I was put upon, you know, it's just fun. I want to do it not because of --, I just want to do it because it was fun to do. It was enjoyable. When you got around a bunch of boys what they wanted to do was play. Play basketball or play --, not sit around but I'm glad it's happened, because they can play.
PF: Girls can play?
LR: Yeah. No question.
GP: Look in the Observer today, I don't know what section it is, I believe it's the Family Living section, and it's interesting reading what age limit that they're recommending youngsters to start participating in sports.
PF: What? What age limit is it?
GP: It's, it's different from different ages but it's --, and the basic thing that they were talking is equipment and leadership in five, six some things for a little bit older eight, ten.
PF: Where did basketball?
GP: In the cradle.
PF: Start, start giving them a ball in the cradle, huh?
LR: [Laughter]
PF: Let them start handling the ball.
GP: Your ( ) says he kicked the cradle and snatched the cradle out with his basketball.
PF: No. You're kidding. [Laughter]
GP: Of course I'm not kidding. [Laughter]
LR: [Laughter]
PF: Well so I interested this thing women and men --.
LR: I don't really feel cheated. I just would like to have had the opportunity to do that, that would've been so much fun.
GP: Let's put it this way, if you got cheated there then there's a lot of places in life you haven't been cheated.
LR: That's right. [Laughter]
GP: Because you have lived a full life.
LR: Do you know what? I think that for instance you take what you --, work with what you got. So we had some outstanding swimmers at Myers Park. Well somebody ought to see these kids, they ought to be able compl--, compete. So we took them I think to Johnson McCrorey Y, and we practiced so we found these teams that we could swim against. So this big meet down at Emory in Atlanta so I went to Jim and I said, "Jim, do you think we could have some money to take these girls swim down?" He said, "Lib, if you want to go, go." [Laughter] You know, I take them on my own.
PF: Oh, but he wasn't going to give you the money?
LR: Well he didn't have it evidently. He would've given it to me if he had it. But you know if you got --, girls like --,
PF: Did you take them?
LR: Sure. Parents and I would take them. Same thing with tennis. They're outstanding tennis players there not because of me. We won state championship but they had the opportunity so before --, before they had state championship for girls in tennis, we played everybody around and beat them. Winthrop, that was before and we want to go down to Pinehurst or Pinecrest and I said, "Do you have any money? If you want to go, go." [Laughter] Yeah. So that's just the way it is. Or has been. And I'm glad to see that those girls who can compete and are talented in that and that's their talent, that's great.
GP: Oh you're just a darned old woman's libber.
LR: Let me get Phyllis (Far) in here and you'll know what a libber is. Oh gosh.
GP: Phyllis'll walk in and I'll walk out.
LR: Don't you put that in there.
GP: No now Phyllis is a good old gal.
PF: We'll edit that.
LR: Oh.
PF: Well --.
GP: Phyllis and I are like that.
LR: Me too. I love her.
PF: Are you still working?
LR: No.
PF: You're both retired?
LR: Working hard at playing.
GP: See we are, we are, we are in the, in the crew has already been forgotten.
PF: But we're going to remember you here.
GP: Well let's get, let's get with it because I got to go.
LR: He's going to farm.
PF: You going to farm? Well tell me, alright here's a question I have for you. What was your most memorable moment? Coaching, or playing.
GP: My gosh.
PF: What made you the happiest or the saddest or is the most telling of your experiences playing basketball, or coaching basketball?
GP: It must have been when we had forty seconds to go and three points lead and we lost the lead.
LR: [Laughter]
PF: Forty seconds to go and you're up by three?
GP: Up by three.
PF: And you lost?
GP: Well we had--it went into overtime and won in overtime.
PF: Oh, you, you, so you lost --, the end of regulation tied up and went to overtime and won it there.
LR: You know he has got some outstanding kids here in the community that played for him. Like Chuck Edwards, he's --, is he a brain surgeon down here? Just oodles of people here in town that he had.
GP: Well you know who, you know who my manager was?
LR: [Sound indicating negative response]
GP: Johnny Kuykendall, president of Davidson College.
PF: John Kuykendall was?
GP: Yeah.
LR: Yeah.
GP: From the old days I used to teach school.
LR: Yeah. See there's just oodles of people here who are prominent that had George.
PF: That's neat.
GP: Well how about all those women that had old men?
LR: [Laughter] Yeah I got a few that --, a girl who just was nominated to receive an award with athletic trainers Patty Potter.
GP: Yeah. I know Patty.
LR: She's Dr. Patty Potter. I am happy.
GP: Patty had, had grew up in the same church that I went to.
LR: Oh. OK.
PF: So is that something that you are most proud of, the kids that you coached that ended up being successful members of --?
GP: Well you know you got to stop and look at it with a grain of salt. Well some of the kids that I, I coached was going to succeed anyway. Now I can remember one guy that over at old (LAG) we had to practice second. And he was one of these guys that would get up in the stands and study while the first practice was going on. And he's in town now a successful lawyer.
LR: Married.
GP: And he would've been successful anyway. And old Dick Spangler, president of the University of North Carolina, I taught him. Dick would've been a success anyway.
PF: Were there things that they learned form you do you think that --?
GP: Well maybe they picked up a little bit of wisdom here or there.
PF: Any skills or discipline?
GP: I am dropped a snake in a snake hole.
PF: [Laughter]
LR: Discipline.
PF: Discipline?
LR: I don't know. You don't teach discipline --.
GP: No --. You know one of the great --, greatest complements I think I ever got was from old Stuart McKaig.
LR: Stuart's a lawyer here in town.
GP: Stuart was fifth man on Duke's basketball team for a long time.
PF: Yeah. Right. I knew I knew him.
GP: And Stuart saw me one day and said, said, "Do you know what?" He said I believe it was on that he was talking about ole Vacendak, he says he "Could never could do a reverse pivot." He says I was the only one around that could.
LR: See, he taught him. Reverse pivot.
PF: Did you have a lot go on and play in college?
GP: Huh?
PF: Did you have a lot go on and play in college?
GP: Oh some, not many. That didn't bother me one-way or the other.
LR: And didn't bother them I'm sure because it wasn't--, you went for an education and not to play basketball.
PF: So it wasn't the center piece of their--?
GP: Huh?
PF: It wasn't the focal point of their school experience?
LR: Yeah. I bet it was a focal point of their school experience. Yeah.
GP: Well I think it was a their focal point too, but to still that they --, they had their visions high enough to forget basketball and worry about dependence where ever they want to be. You take Kenneth Owens, which is, what is a dental guy that works on all the bad teeth?
PF: Orthodontist.
GP: Orthodontist. On the basketball squad.
PF: Do you think it helped, it might help some kids that find a place in school, find that --, become accepted?
GP: I'm sure, I'm sure. Especially those when they got cut time and they didn't get cut.
PF: Um-hum. I remember how hard that was. I got cut several times.
LR: Do you know that was another thing in women's basketball was that you don't hurt people's feelings. So if you had a team you had to cut. So that was another reason I think the law would be enough. Everybody participates, but there is room for the skilled.
PF: So you think one reason they got rid of women's basketball is because it was--
LR: Maybe that was a little, little part of it.
PF: because they didn't want them to be competitive?
GP: That's a hard question.
LR: Yeah I know. I don't know.
PF: Because --.
LR: There's scholastic --, in a scholastic competitive maybe.
PF: If they're going to be competitive somebody wins and somebody loses.
LR: Every --, everything you do.
GP: Yeah but the real key is how many of these fellas that are playing basketball right now, what percent of them have got their eye beyond the next basketball game?
PF: Uh-hum.
GP: And what percent of them are now playing in college where they, they play in professional, what less than five percent?
PF: Oh yeah, much less. Like one in ten thousand make it from high school to the pros.
LR: It was hard for women at that time, '48, to distinguish between --, between physical education and athletics. You didn't, you didn't go to coach so I learned all my coaching skills that I have from men from being in the field.
PF: Yeah.
LR: You know you'd go and you'd watch George to what they'd be doing in practice like a pick, or a screen, or give-and-go or --. You wasn't taught that in college you learn that, at that time from men. And the girls now coming out, they, they come out to coach. It's great.
PF: Did you change it any for the women, what you learned from the men coaches?
LR: Absolutely not.
PF: Taught them the same way?
LR: Yeah. Why?
GP: Because some of the better women basketball players, you can't tell them much difference than some of the better men basketball players.
LR: You teach the dribble, you teach the stop, the jump shot, that timed set shot. [Laughter] Talk, talk zone defense, man to man, out of bounds plays, I learned that all from men.
GP: Oh it's, it's --.
LR: At that time.
GP: It's just been an evolution.
LR: Yeah it sure has.
PF: Do you think it gotten better or gotten worse?
GP: Gotten better.
LR: Oh my.
PF: Progressed?
LR: Yeah, it took a long time.
GP: And what would it be ten years from now?
LR: Girls will be dunking the ball.
PF: Well there's one of them at North Carolina that supposed to be doing it now.
GP: She probably --.
LR: But the way they were shooting down at Winthrop, they don't need to.
GP: She probably, she probably won't today will she? [Laughter]
LR: [Laughter] No. You know with the ball that small she could do that.
PF: What about women's pro league, do you think we'll ever, ever see a women's pro league?
LR: I don't know. There's still some teams that just playing to play, not looking any further. What do they have to look forward to?
PF: Am I taking up-too much of your time here?
GP: Thank you, you hear he says it's time to go.
US (Unidentified Speaker): No, no, no, no, no. I just got to, go to get on the road here.
PF: Well let us get out --.
LR: No, he's alright. I wouldn't have asked him if --.
PF: No, no problem.
LR: He, he's OK.
GP: Ed, I'm going to call over John Murphy, tell him time to get the heck, get you out of here.
US: Oh please don't do that. Don't throw me in the briar patch.
LR: He just bought a new car.
US: So now I've got to pay for that.
GP: Do you remember what old John Hassel used to tell me? He said, "You're teaching for nothing." The last three or four years that I worked.
US: Well tell me what you'd be doing, you know what you'd be doing if you weren't teaching?
GP: Nothing.
LR: He's enjoying it, let him do it.
US: That's right.
LR: I believe in enjoying it.
US: I don't want to work at Wendy's. I don't have any desire to be at McDonald's.
GP: Go take Dave's place.
US: I figure as long as I --,
GP: How much more we got to do on this? I'm ready to go.
PF: D --, we don't have to do any more than you want to. If you're ready to go we can call it quits.
LR: Do you want to see my book?
PF: I'd love to see it, yeah.
LR: You want to take it with you?
PF: Sure.
LR: OK. There might be some stuff in --, some stuff in there about the Industrial League.
PF: Oh. OK. Great.
LR: Let's see what else. Illuminating, you know. I don't know whatever --, just should --. To read is --.
LR: I'll tell you who was a sports writer in Gastonia at that time. Not Whitey Kelly, but somebody's on the staff over here, he may know a bunch of stuff. Humpy Wheeler is from Belmont Abbey and that area.
GP: It was his daddy over there wasn't it?
LR: Yeah. His father left--.
PF: His brother was my coach at Charlotte Country Day.
GP: Well it's been a pleasure being on this group where lady like lives.
LR: [Laughter] Ancient. [Laughter] And when you looked at my book, it was a whole lot older than you.
GP: I looked in there and saw a Mrs. Lib wrote that and I couldn't realize who in the deuce that was.
LR: It wasn't, it was Sifford.
GP: No, it was Rotan.
LR: Oh it was.
GP: Yes.